Sunday, July 19, 2009

Where Are We In Time?

A Prophet’s Log (Flush)

Where are we in time?
Lettuce reason.

But before we do: Join Dill Weed, Jr. in the followers section. For your safety, leave the dry cat food at home! Jr. has a pleasant disposition and is good company as long as there isn’t any dry cat food around. : D

Note: Religons in their attempt to see themselves as God's church have to apply things they find in scripture to themselves. That is where 'spiritualization' is particularly useful - in the sense it can never be proven or disproven, therefore you either believe and have faith and are part of the 'truth' or not. If you attempt to disprove or question then you are apostate and out you go. JWs do the same thing, mind bendingly so, as do others.

I'll make this a working document and update with relevant comments, corrections and input.

I read parts of PET and most of GFW. The post is an attempt to flesh out PKGs End Time beliefs and compare them with some others. It is admittedly a work in process. I'm exploring what is supposed to happen in the last 3 years.

Everyone chime in where you like.

The Seven Seals

Consider: Ron claims a 'spiritual' fulfillment for the first five seals. GFW pg. 62 "As mentioned, the first 5 Seals apply to God's church." (And apparently, only to the COG.) This is odd, most believe these will be physical, but whatever. Remember to see themselves as 'God's church' organizations have to see themselves in scripture first and that is when (dumb)founding, unprovable explanations and identifications start (sheesh). Ok, but I beat a dead horse below anyway.

One would suppose there would also be a physical fulfillment completing the 'pattern' or 'duality' of the prophecy. If that is the case, when did the physical fulfillment of Seals 1 - 4 and 6 occur since we are now awaiting the 2nd Trumpet? (Those seals have detail which refer specifically to physical things.)

1st Seal Prophesied End Time (PET) 1st Seal opened December 17, 1994 - White Horse with a rider bent on conquest (of COG)-widely believed to be the Anti-Christ and the slayer of the Two Witnesses 3 ½ years later. (Tkach defiled the Temple in December 17th 1994, the abomination that causes desolation. Not sure about the math on that one.) Tkach may be considered to be a 'type' of anti-christ in the 'spiritual' sense - a forerunner of 'physical' Anti-Christ?

Consider: The Anti-Christ is believed to come on the scene and make a 7 year peace accord with Israel, lead a slimmed down 10 nation EU, uproot 2 or 3 of those self-same nations, be killed by a blow to the head, resurrected, indwelt by Satan, break the 7 year peace accord at the 3 1/2 year mark initiating the Great Tribulation, work with the False Prophet to institute the Mark of the Beast, no buying or selling (including Super Bowl tickets -see post below), and if you don't take the mark then off with your head (presumably at the direction of the False Prophet and the speaking image he makes of the Beast under the power of a one world religon), head up a vast and dominant EU army that does not exist yet (!) (who can make war with the Beast?), conquer physical Israel, modern day Israel (Canada, America, Australia, New Zealand) and portions of the Middle East. Hear rumblings out of the east, gather his armies to fight a 200 million man Chinese army, then join with them and oppose Christ's return at Armageddon. ALL IN LESS THAN 3 YEARS. And since we are in the last 3 1/2 years - where is the Anti-Christ anyway?

From PKG-COG FAQ: Anti-Christ is not one person, nor does this refer to the Pope.

What about all the specific stuff said about him then? He is after all the Beast who makes war with the Two Witnesses and overcomes them. Rev. 11:7 and 13:8.
One bad guy, the Anti-Christ, to their good guys is AWOL. The other, the False Prophet, the Pope, is in place. GFW Pg. 136 & 139.

2nd Seal - PET Pg. 154 (The opening of the 2nd Seal followed instantly behind the 1st.) "Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from (COG) the earth and to make (members spiritually slay each other) men slay each other. To him was given a large sword (new set of beliefs)." (All just within COG if you believe Ron.) Red Horse incites wars (Nothing matching the scale of WWII has happened, especially since 1994 when, Tkach, defiled the Temple. Has this seal been opened? It was no can of whoop ass, if it was. One would expect this to be biblical.)

Consider: Presumably, this would be part of the Anti-Christ's wars?

3rd Seal - PET Exact date not given - shortly after 2nd Seal. "A Black Horse - A quarta of wheat for a day’s wages, and three quarts of barley for a day’s wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine! (Spiritual food becomes scarce and expensive?)” (Famine) Spiritual famine because people were without God's direction through prophet Ron. (See below.) Physical famine would intensify with Anti-Christ wars and plagues of the 4th Seal.

GFW Pg. 60 – The first three seals allowed for the self-destruction of two thirds of God’s own church. All I can think to say is, “Wow, I thought this applied to the world not just some small church. Well, that's what Ron says Jesus told him." GFW Pg 63 "When Christ began opening those Seals, He revealed their meaning to me, His servant.”

Stunning, simply, stunning.

But it gets better, it always does, when you identify yourself in scripture.

4th Seal - PET Exact date not given - shortly after 3rd Seal. "A pale horse! Its rider was named Death (Tkach), and Hades (Tkach's son?) was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of (COG) the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth. (fought and became like beasts?)" (Applies only to the remaining 1/3 of COG, but notice Death and Hades were given power over a 1/4 of the earth. 1/4 of the remaining 1/3 of COG? I think I remember this from Ron's math as noted below.) Kills 1/4th of the earth - Still waiting. I’m sure this hasn’t happened in my lifetime. 1.5 Billion would have to die. When physical fulfillment?)

GFW Pg. 60- The fourth seal applies to the remaining one third of God’s church and would result in their experiencing the same kind of destruction as the former two thirds (Huh?), but they are being refined by God. (Oh, I get it.) What about killing one fourth of the earth? Oh yeah, that would be physical. Ooops.

5th Seal - PET Date not specified. Martyrs told to wait longer for justice. Happens in heaven. Presumably, only a spiritual fulfillment. (I need to pull Ron's finger =>)

6th Seal - GFW - Pg. 91 Opened 9/11/01. A great earthquake, sun turns black, 144,000 are sealed. (Feb 2 according to Ron. Where was the earthquake and when did the sun turn black? Did I miss this?) (Apparently, Ron does not believe in physical fulfillment of the 6 Seals. See below.)

GFW Pg.82 – Transition from the spiritual (applying to COG only) to the physical destruction everyone else. Concluding with the ‘sealing of the 144,000'. “The duration of the Sixth Seal is a time of transition between the COMPLETION of a spiritual phase and the beginning of a physical phase for the fulfillment of end time prophecies.” It’s all physical after the 6th Seal?

The Seven Thunders of the Sixth Seal.

Noteworthy: Ron has lifted the Seven Thunders and the Two Witnesses from the 6th Trumpet and placed them in the 6th Seal. However, if one started counting the 1260 days from the 6th Trumpet that would alter things a great deal. There appears to be overlap in the events of Revelation. How much I couldn't say. However much overlap there may be, the Great Tribulation is a fixed 3 1/2 yr period.

Also worthy of note:

GFW Page 91: "All Seven Thunders will increase in intensity as this great end-time storm approaches" Most Thunders have not intensified as 'prophesied' and some have not occurred at all. (See below)

GFW Page 115: "During the Sixth Seal, all Seven Thunders will be getting progressively louder." All Seven Thunders have not intensified during the Sixth Seal or even after. Some have not occurred at all. (See below)

H/T to Mike for pointing these out.

GFW Pg. 111 "All Seven Thunders are given as God's proof that I am his End Time prophet."

Where is the proof? I am an open minded fellow (even though I mock), but no one's blind believer. These proof of a prophet Thunders - can they only be seen if they are 'given'? I think not. Where is the proof?

Evidence that these Thunders are happening will be added when presented. One would think this would be readily apparent since we are in the last 3 years.

1st Thunder (Has not seemed to 'intensify' since 2006) 9/11 and the War on Terror (Two wars.)

(These occurred before book was published in 2006! Prophesy by hindsight is reporting.)

2nd Thunder (Some intensification since 2006, but most occurred before 2006 publication.) Increasing destruction generated by earthquakes.

3/25/02 Hindu Kush – 6.1 with 1000 dead
5/21/03 Northern Algeria – 6.8 with 2266 dead
12/26/03 Southeastern Iran – 6.6 with 31,000 dead
12/26/04 Sumatra – 9.1 with 227,898 dead
3/28/05 Northern Sumatra 8.6 with 1313 dead
10/8/05 Pakistan 7.6 with 85,000 dead
(All occurred before the book was published in 2006.)
5/26/06 Indonesia 6.3 with 5749 dead,
5/12/08 Eastern Sichuan 7.9 with 87,587 dead

Decade of 1990s Earthquake deaths 114,646

Decade of 2000 – 2009 so far, 463,955 a fourfold increase in deaths over the 1990s.

GFW- Pg. 95 “Over a period of only two years, there have been over 400,000 deaths from earthquakes.”


But note, this is looking backwards, retrospectively, especially to the 2004 Sumatran tsunami generating earthquake which alone killed over 225,000. Reporting what has already happened is not prophesying.

3rd Thunder (Has not seemed to 'intensify' since 2006) Growing destructiveness by weather.

(Hurricane Katrina occurred August 25, 2005 before book was published. Nothing equivalent or greater has occurred since.) Reporting what has already happened is not prophesying.

4th Thunder (Definite intensification since 2006.) Global Economic Upheaval

(Global financial crisis occurred fall 2008 and continues today possibly leading to a depression. Dollar continues to be global currency. Ron has predicted dollar to become worthless and for America to be invaded and conquered along with Canada, Australia, New Zealand and some European countries.)

5th Thunder (No evidence this is happening at all.)

Death in 3 phases

1st Phase – Marked increase in death within COG leadership. (Has not happened – can't be 'intensifying' since it has not started. COG leadership is still living, but are aged. Specifically named leaders are still alive. It would NOT be unusual for some of them to die- nor would it be 'marked'.)

An interesting aside, Ron said the pope (Ratzinger)is possessed. He broke his wrist recently and is 83 years old. The Pope might poop out before The End. Where would that leave Ron? (see below)

2nd Phase - Sudden escalation in death of notable people.
(Has not happened – and is not in the process of thundering.)

Consider this condition placed on the 2nd Phase: GFW Pg. 108 "These notable people will include political leaders and well known entertainment and sports figures. It will include other religious figures within the various religons of the world. THE PRIMARY EXCEPTION TO THIS WILL BE THE POPE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, WHO IS PROPHESIED TO DIE DIRECTLY AFTER THE RETURN OF JESUS CHRIST." (emphasis mine) The pope (Ratzinger) at the time of this prophecy was 81 years old and began his reign April, 2005. What if he dies before Christ returns? Is Ron exposed as a false prophet? Malachi and others have predicted the next pope to be the last pope - the False Prophet. Ron is repeating what Jesus told him - so he is committed.

(Dead People Server)
1996 – 79 Notable people died.
1997 – 142 Notable people died.
1998– 98 Notable people died.
1999– 113 Notable people died.
2000– 139 Notable people died.
2001– 107 Notable people died.
2002– 131 Notable people died.
2003– 123 Notable people died.
2004- 113 Notable people died.
2005– 183 Notable people died.
2006 – 119 Notable people died.
2007 – 132 Notable people died.
2008 – 126 Notable people died.
2009 – 63 as of July 18 up to and including Walter Cronkite, on track to equal last year.

Peak in 2005 then a decrease. No sudden increase since book was published.

3rd Phase - Sudden escalation of death in the world by plagues. (There is no evidence of a 'sudden escalation'. Not thundering.)

6th Thunder (No notable intensification since 2006.) Growing revelation of God’s Two End Time Witnesses as a result of the increasing thundering of the Seven Thunders validating Ron and Laura’s End Time ministry.

(Ron went to ideaCity, but otherwise nothing – not even a Jerry Springer appearance. Is this in the process of thundering?)

Have the Thunders revealed to the world God’s Two Witnesses?

Ask someone on the street at random.

7th Thunder (Has not happened. No increase in power.)Accelerated revelation of God to man “as His Two Witnesses grow in power.”

Ron said, “No powers, yet, maybe after the 5th Trumpet. He thinks. The Two Witnesses have not in any discernable way grown in power.

7th Seal - (March 18th 2008, updated to November 14, 2008 by Divine revelation to Ron.)

Silence for about ½ hour (Seems longer.)

1st Trumpet - hail and fire mixed with blood, burns 1/3 of the earth and trees, also all the green grass (April 17th according to Ron, updated to Dec. 14, 2008 by Divine revelation to Ron.)

According to Ron, this was ‘spiritual’ (Wasn’t the Sixth Seal about transitioning to physical fulfillment?) Because it was ‘spiritual’ it was unrecognizable by anyone including church members, God ‘gave it’ to Ron that it had happened and Ron ‘gave’ it to the church.)

2nd Trumpet - 1/3rd of the sea turned to blood (Hasn’t happened yet.

This was prophesied by Ron to be physical and therefore apparent to all mankind. It is supposed to be “nukular bombs going off in port cities.” This Trumpet has been delayed for a while within the final 3 ½ year time period due to a 2 day fast observed by the church at Ron’s and presumably God’s direction. 7 months in and it is still delaying. At ideaCity, Ron reaffirmed that the 2nd Trumpet was “nukular” bombs going off in port cities.

3rd Trumpet - 1/3rd of the water turned bitter (Still Waiting.)

4th Trumpet - 1/3rd of the sun, moon, and stars turned dark (Still waiting.)

5th Trumpet - (1st Woe) Locusts sting men like scorpions for five months.(Still waiting.)

6th Trumpet - (2nd Woe) (Still Waiting.)
4 Angels kill 1/3rd of mankind (Still waiting.)
7 Unwritten Thunders (until Weinland) (Started thundering 9/11 and some have rumbled off and on.)
2 Witnesses prophesy for 1260 days (1st Witness prefers to deliver run of the mill, sermons rather than prophesying.)
2 Witnesses lie dead for 3 ½ days (according to Weinland this is part of the 1260 days) (Still waiting.)
2 Witnesses resurrected, severe earthquake (Sept 29, 2011 per Weinland) (Still waiting.)

7th Trumpet (3rd Woe) (Still waiting.)

Pregnant woman gives birth, hides for 1260 days (according to Weinland all 7th Trumpet events happen on one day) (Still waiting.)
Beast with 7 heads & 10 horns rules for 42 months (could be included within the 1260 days that the woman hides) (Still waiting.)

Seven Final Plagues or Vials.

1st Vial, painful sores (Still waiting.)
2nd Vial, all sea life dies (Still Waiting.)
3rd Vial, water turned to blood (Still waiting.)
4th Vial, sun intensifies (Still waiting.)
5th Vial, sun darkens (Still waiting.)
6th Vial, drought (Still waiting.)
7th Vial (Still waiting.)

Tick Tock


Weinland Observer said...

Hey. My first time commenting on your blog, first comment of the post. Nice post. Only one error, seventh seal opened on Nov. 14, 2008 and first trumpet sounded on Dec. 14, 2008. You don't believe Ron and this I understand. However you do understand him for the most part. I like how you contrasted what people commonly believe to what Ron teaches. Great job!
Great statistics as well. In order to be sure that death is increasing we can't just look at how many famous people died but also at any other death by disease and cog minister. Nowhere is it stated that each phase of the thunder increases.

Dill Weed said...

Welcome, WO

I corrected the dates.

There were three specific phases to the increasing death thunder.

Ron specifically used the term "notable people" He does not qualify that (meaning make it more specific than the term "notable.")
The web site I quoted statistics from uses the specific term "notable." It is by Ron's own description a place to check this phase.

It is clear that there has been no increase in the deaths of "notable" people.

You might make an out for Ron saying that depends on what notable means. President Clinton used a similar disambiguation (attempt to obscure the issue by denying that he had sex with that woman, Monica Lewinksy, when, by anyone's reasonable definition he was thoroughly unfaithfull to his wife.)

I say that to alert you that THAT is not an acceptable refutation of my assertion that the increase in the deaths of "notable" people has not occurred.

It may be easier to use Ron's explanation that the Thunders thunder through out the end. That way no explanation is necessary. He is not disproven, proof is pushed into the future, and most people will forget about it.

It is also clear that there has not been any increased death of COG members overall and none of the ministers he identified specifically.

With respect to an increase in general death (phase 3, I think) I don't recall any news stories of an increase above what is always happening normally.

So the conclusion that none of the 3 phases has happened is indisputable - unless you find evidence that proves otherwise OR ROn provides evidence that the 3 phases have indeed occurred.

But, in any case, one is left having to prove a prophecy true, rather than it being evident on its own THUS proving beyond doubt that legitimacy of the Two Witnesses. THAT would be the 6th Thunder thundering.

You should note, since this is your first time to my blog, that previously, I have claimed there was no increase in deaths from earthquakes. I was wrong.

I re-examined the evidence from the USGS and there has been an increase in deaths.

I'm willing to admit error when facts prove me incorrect.

You should note however, that Ron's prophesy of increased death had been fulfilled BEFORE the book was written and published. Since he wrote it there were two other large earthquakes that added to the total.

Dill Weed

Mike (Don't Drink the Flavor Aid) said...

I have to quibble with the terminology here. Dill Weed didn't correct the error, he just updated it to Weinland's latest error.

Also, note that the sequence presented in revelation has the 7 Thunders and the Two Witnesses inside the 6th Trumpet, and these happen after 1/3 of mankind is already dead.

If you don't believe me, just outline the book of Revelation in the sequence presented. Don't reorder events with the interpretations of your favorite false prophet.

To do otherwise is very risky. See Revelation 22:18-19

DW, I note that the majority of the earthquake deaths occurred prior to the release of 2008 GFW in Nov, 2006. And the events were not in the modern day nations of Israel.

2008 God's Final Witness:
Page 90: "The final storm will engulf the whole earth for three and one-half years, but as that storm approaches, the rumbling of this thunder will be heard with increasing intensity."
Page 91: "All Seven Thunders will increase in intensity as this great end-time storm approaches"
Page 115: "During the Sixth Seal, all Seven Thunders will be getting progressively louder."

Specifically for the 5th Thunder, not a single one of the phases is intensified or louder.

Mark said...

Ron needs a second edition of God's Final Witness, revised and updated. You know, people who believe Ron could have just as easily been swept up in any number of false prophets who currently are preaching end-of-world junk food (yes, junk food- tastes good, but has no nutritional value). Ron is just happy people stumbled across him on the Internet since this is such a niche market and competition is fierce.

Dill Weed said...

No quibble about that from me. Just noting the shift.

Indeed, Ron has lifted the Seven Thunders and the Two Witness from the 6th Trumpet and placed them in the 6th Seal. However, if one started counting the 1260 days from the 6th Trumpet that would alter things a great deal. There appears to be overlap (all though I couldn't say how much in Revelations happenings.) However much overlap there may be the Great Tribulation is a fixed 3 1/2 yr period.

I may have missed Ron stating that the thunders would be limited to or worse in modern day nations of Israel.

The increase of earthquakes deaths was feat accompli well before the book was published.

I'll add Ron's claims about thunder intensification.


Dill Weed

Observer said...

Hi Dill Weed: Wow, you really did a lot of work on this one! : )
I don't think Ron specified that the thunders would affect the modern Israelite nations more than others. After all the tsunami in Asia was one of the big thunders that Ron mentioned. It is the first 5 trumpets that are specific to the nations of Israel.
Gotta run. Everyone wants a turn at the computer because our internet has been down. I just wanted to let you know that I enjoyed your post and will read it more carefully when I have more time.

DRMR said...

"I'll make this a working document and update with relevant comments, corrections and input."

What a fantastic idea, to make it an ongoing thing, with updates and input as time goes on.

To put these scriptures up, and compare them to what RW says on a point by point basis like this, should turn out to be very beneficial to those reading it (as well as a lot of fun) at least I think so.

Anonymous said...

Hi Dill Weed: Our computer has been working sporadically at best for the last few days so I finally printed off a copy of this post. I have only glanced at it quickly but it seems to be a hodgepodge of Weinland, pre-trib rapture, and other assorted beliefs. (no offense meant; it is very hard to keep it all sorted out. So many differing opinions have been sifted through my own brain that it begins to get confusing as to which is which) : )
I need to get out my copy of "The Prophesied End Time" and at least get that sorted out. I don't want to speak off the top of my head so I'm not going to start pointing out anything in particular.

BTW, have you read "The prophesied End Time"? When God first led me to the PKG website, I immediately printed off "2008 GFW" and was going to read it right away. I immediately knew that I was not to do that. It was essential that I read TPET first. So I printed it off as well. God used this book to take everything that I had learned in the past and all the hours of personal study, note taking, prayer, etc on the Book of Revelation that I had done to make sense of it all. I don't know if I could have "received" 2008 GFW without understanding the first book. God knew that I needed to understand a few things first. As it turned out, I "knew" that Ron was one of the witnesses before I read the part where he stated that he was.

I believe that you are honestly seeking the truth and are not trying to distort things and I understand that you have been lied to and don't want to let it happen again. Only God can keep that from happening. If you are honest with Him, seek His wisdom, obey what you know is true and continue to cry out to Him for mercy you will be doing a good thing. Take care and have a great day. C

Observer said...

Not sure why that came up as anonymous. I put in my name.

Dill Weed said...


I read parts of PET and most of GFW. The post is an attempt to flesh out PKGs End Time beliefs and compare them with some others. It is admittedly a work in process. I'm exploring what is supposed to happen in the last 3 years.

Everyone chime in where you like.

Dill Weed

todd said...

you timeline is based on what scripture says, or did i misread your post?

Dill Weed said...

Timeline is based on what Ron has said in his books and sermons. The idea is to flesh it out, define it and ultimately prove Ron a Falser prophet.

Check out my latest post - which could put the lie to him even earlier.

The timeline is more of a rough sketch using what I can find from Ron along with stuff found in the scriptures.

I'm not trying to nail it all down.

My main interest is disproving Ron.

Dill Weed

Observer said...

Dill Weed: I must have misunderstood you then. I thought that your main interest was to find the truth. If it is, as you say, to disprove Ron, then that is what you will do .. in your own mind and to your own harm.
Todd: In understanding what the scriptures say, those of us brought up in some form of Christianity must be careful not to allow our own biases and preconceived ideas to "muddy the waters" so that we read into the text something that isn't there. The pre-trib rapture is one example in point but when it comes to the Book of Revelation there are many examples.

todd said...

if you say so O

todd said...

let me just wipe out everything you think you know about the bible and insert my interpretation of what the bible means so that i can get rich off all my followers and travel around the world and live a lavish life style.

ahhh, if only i had no moral values i would be able to live like that.

Mike (Don't Drink the Flavor Aid) said...

Observer said:
I have only glanced at it quickly but it seems to be a hodgepodge of Weinland, pre-trib rapture, and other assorted beliefs. (no offense meant; it is very hard to keep it all sorted out. So many differing opinions have been sifted through my own brain that it begins to get confusing as to which is which) : )

The source of this was based on an outline that I did of the book of Revelation. No interpretation, just a listing of the symbolic items in the order as they are presented in Revelation. Try it for yourself, if you can resist saying that "Oh, this symbol is the same as that other symbol back in the previous chapter" or "Oh, you have to read Daniel to understand".

Next, Dill Weed layered Weinland's interpretations on top. Yeah, that turned it into a hodge-podge.

Dill Weed said...

You can't have a hodge-podge with just one ingredient - you've got to have several.

I'm trying to sketch the picture of what to expect in the next 3 years.

We are already 7 months in -and there is a lot of prophetic stuff yet still to happen. Frankly, time wise, I'm hard pressed to see it occurring within Weinland's time frame. I'm playing along, after all, Ron says, "The proof of a prophet is that what he says comes to pass."

Dill Weed

Mike (Don't Drink the Flavor Aid) said...

Observer said: "I don't think Ron specified that the thunders would affect the modern Israelite nations more than others."

Actually he did. On page 199 of 2008 GFW "The reason this book and The Prophesied End-Time have so much to say about specific events that will take place in the United States, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, the United Kingdom, and much of western Europe is that these nations are very specifically identified as the descendents of those lost ten tribes of Israel! End-time events focus first on the demise of these nations over the next couple of years."

A "couple" is two. With the book released in November of 2006, the thunders should have focused on these nations leading to their demise by last November. Didn't happen: neither the focusing nor the demise.